[Fibber2]

Complex question.....

The dual band programmable 33500 makes it's appearance in the Schrader catalog around 2015. So at worst case, they could be 6+ years old. A little too young to be dead of natural causes, but not impossible for a fairly new product to have some longevity issues if you really did get units from a very old batch.

When DT 'created' a Subaru set for your winter assembly in 2017 using these programmable sensors, did they make a new set with random Hex ID numbers, or did they "clone" your existing set of 4 summer tires? Could you swap them in and the car simply saw identical ID values, or did DT have to reregister the set in use each time you swap winter / summer sets?

Just to make sure I have this right. Originally they were paired to a 2017 Outback for a winter wheel/tire set. That vehicle used the older 315 MHz system with just a single dash light. You used them successfully on that vehicle for 3 years. Each time you swapped the winter / summer set,
1) DT reregistered the set now in use to your vehicle - if they were different Hex ID.
-- or --
2) They were clones, and the system saw no difference in what you were driving on.
Either way, you never saw a warning light. Everything worked.

In 2020 you got a new Gen-6 Outback (note that your profile still says 2017). Your 2020 uses a new TPMS system transmitting on 433 MHz, and has a dash display that shows PSI at each corner. Using PAL technology it updates the wheel position if you rotate the 4 tires. But it will not relearn/reregister a new set of sensors if you change summer / winter tires (unless they were clones). You likely still need an electronic tool to upload a new set of codes.

In order to use your 2017 winter set on your 2020, DT would have had to do two things.
1) Overwrite the 4 sensors to wipe out the Subaru 315 MHz protocol and change it to Subaru 433 MHz. At the same time either clone the ID's off your new car, or assign new Hex ID numbers. And yes, following whatever Schrader procedure says, this can be done dozens or hundreds of times. Probably dropping the air pressure to zero to enable a write cycle. But one warning. Typically, writing to flash does require much more power than reading. So I could see this working much more reliably on new sensors than several year old ones. Repeated rewriting could also take a toll on the onboard battery. Who knows how successful they were in 2020, and what the impact was.
2) They mounted your updated winter set on the car and (if cloned) they ran fine, or (if new ID) they connected their tool and uploaded the 4 new codes.

For that winter everything was fine. No warning lights, and your dash display showed valid tire pressures at all 4 corners. In the Spring, you changed back to your summer set, and again everything was fine.

This month, the winter set is DOA. Pinging yields no response. I assume they pinged with their tool set to 2020 Outback 433 MHz.

 

[Nahnnidog]

Hi Fibber, thank for you thorough response. Took a few days and few trips to tire places to get answers best I could. SPOILER ALERT...there is a new elephant in the room, apparently resolving the mystery. See subsequent to last quote.

Just to make sure I have this right. Originally they were paired to a 2017 Outback for a winter wheel/tire set. That vehicle used the older 315 MHz system with just a single dash light. You used them successfully on that vehicle for 3 years. Each time you swapped the winter / summer set,
1) DT reregistered the set now in use to your vehicle - if they were different Hex ID.
-- or --
2) They were clones, and the system saw no difference in what you were driving on.
Either way, you never saw a warning light. Everything worked.

Everything worked, no warning. Assuming #2, ID's were clones, as that is DT Standard Operating Procedure today. This would be Schrader Program count=1. DT performed all seasonal swaps on 2017 Outback, and it is DT SOP to assume the non-cloned IDs, so relearn regardless.

In 2020 you got a new Gen-6 Outback (note that your profile still says 2017). Your 2020 uses a new TPMS system transmitting on 433 MHz, and has a dash display that shows PSI at each corner. Using PAL technology it updates the wheel position if you rotate the 4 tires. But it will not relearn/reregister a new set of sensors if you change summer / winter tires (unless they were clones). You likely still need an electronic tool to upload a new set of codes.

Yes Gen6. Assuming that in 2017 DT cloned summer wheels IDs to Winter Wheels, as that would be smart. However, previously mentioned, DT SOP is to routinely relearn to the vehicle under the assumption the IDs are NOT cloned.

In order to use your 2017 winter set on your 2020, DT would have had to do two things.
1) Overwrite the 4 sensors to wipe out the Subaru 315 MHz protocol and change it to Subaru 433 MHz. At the same time either clone the ID's off your new car, or assign new Hex ID numbers. And yes, following whatever Schrader procedure says, this can be done dozens or hundreds of times. Probably dropping the air pressure to zero to enable a write cycle. But one warning. Typically, writing to flash does require much more power than reading. So I could see this working much more reliably on new sensors than several year old ones. Repeated rewriting could also take a toll on the onboard battery. Who knows how successful they were in 2020, and what the impact was.
2) They mounted your updated winter set on the car and (if cloned) they ran fine, or (if new ID) they connected their tool and uploaded the 4 new codes.

I'm assuming this is what DT did Winter 2020. My notes show that DT initially weren't sure they could "reprogram", but found that they could. Per your comments on WRITING Flash expending more energy, I would count this as program Count=2. Oh yeah, conflicts with what DT techs said winter 2021, i.e. one time programmable. I assume winter 2021 some misinformation leaked into DT. Or a skeptic might think DT likes selling new TPS, but they have seemingly been very honest, so probably not.

For that winter everything was fine. No warning lights, and your dash display showed valid tire pressures at all 4 corners. In the Spring, you changed back to your summer set, and again everything was fine.

WInter 2020 95% confidence everything fine. With new car, I could have missed a warning, but doubt it. Summer 2020 definitely fine (alerted me to a nail in 1 tire, I could watch the pressure drop over a few days...nice!

This month, the winter set is DOA. Pinging yields no response. I assume they pinged with their tool set to 2020 Outback 433 MHz.

Yes, Winter 2021, no response. DT used Bartec Pro Series scanner and tried 2017 Outback and 2020 Outback. I even took it to Big O for a second opinion. BigO scanner MX41? tried 2017 and 2020 Outback. Similar to DT, no response whatever.

Back to DT yesterday, Nov. 22. New Sales Rep. there and MUCH more careful interaction based upon what I've learned from you. Rep said there is NOW a warranty on Schrader 33500, due to what was summarized as a "battery problem." Schrader now using new model #33560. DT did the right thing and gave me 4 new 33560 at no cost, per warranty. Nicely, warranty on 33560 resets for another 6 years. They cloned IDs from Summer wheels. Rep said they deliberately "relearned" despite knowing IDs matched, as this was necessary to remove the warning Icon on the dash. Complexity remained, however. Outback still did show the warning icon and the 4 psi reading were blank. Rep talked to the Tech with dirty hands in the shop who said problem was because my 4 winter wheels were in the trunk, and were confusing the Outback. Tech was right, got home removed the Summer wheels, drove ~ 2 miles, then icon disappeared and psi readings finally displayed!!! What a process!!

I've searched briefly on the WWW to see info on 33500 battery problem, but not found it. I got one of the defective 33500 and plan to crack it open....It's tiny, battery has to be very small.

 

[Fibber2]

Wow! So natural death came early to that set of Schrader sensors. Teething pains of a relatively new product at the time you bought in. But I'm glad to hear that Schrader (Sensata) stepped up to offer an extended warranty, and that someone at Discount Tire knew it and honored it. You made out very well, and I'm happy to hear that it was successfully resolved.

Odd to me that even though they clone, they also regregister with each seasonal change. An unnecessary step (IMHO), as the idea of cloning is that the vehicle never really sees the change and shouldn't react negatively to it. I'm using clones that I made with Autel sensors on my daughter's 2018 Toyota RAV4 and the vehicle knows nothing about the swap.

But interesting that the 2021 Outback didn't like the extra set of tires in the cargo area. I would have thought that PAL (a motion detection scheme that allows the vehicle to differentiate which tire is in which corner) would have ignored any transmissions from the stationary (non-rolling) tires.

Well, this was an interesting exercise! Glad that I was able to help educate if nothing else.

 

[Nahnnidog]

Wow! So natural death came early to that set of Schrader sensors. Teething pains of a relatively new product at the time you bought in.

I'm guessing dual frequency capability introduced by Schrader? I'm curious changes between 13500 and 13560 and exactly the failure mode.

Odd to me that even though they clone, they also regregister with each seasonal change. An unnecessary step (IMHO), as the idea of cloning is that the vehicle never really sees the change and shouldn't react negatively to it.

Rep explained as they don't know for sure the customer didnt change the TPS, so just always relearn. I've read that the relearn procedure on some brands (not Subaru) doesn't require OBD2 port access, so maybe a little quicker?

But interesting that the 2021 Outback didn't like the extra set of tires in the cargo area. I would have thought that PAL (a motion detection scheme that allows the vehicle to differentiate which tire is in which corner) would have ignored any transmissions from the stationary (non-rolling) tires.

Maybe the antenna in the rear wheelwells nearly as close to wheels in the trunk? And it seems to be a test that happens at startup, i.e. doesnt require wheels to be spinning, I guess that brings up the further question, do scanners read/write with the 315/433Mhz or do they just use the very short range 125Mhz? If the latter, I could imagine the vehicle and scanner sometimes getting different connectivity. e.g. if TPS 433Mhz failed, scanner wouldn't know it.

And thanks for the education!

 

[Fibber2]

Schrader has been offering user programmable sensors going back to around 2010, but in those days you had to select the hard-coded operating frequency.
33000 were 315 MHz blanks, 33100 & 33200 were 433 MHz units.
The 33500 replaced them all with a single unit that as part of the programming function, you invoked one of the available transmitters.
Chipsets are constantly evolving. Even moving the exact same design to the next fabrication process node can result in improved performance at lower power. But they typically revamp the chip design as well to capitalize on the move to improve things further and contain the cost. So maybe they discovered that their life testing wasn't as good as they thought, and the dual frequency units were not lasting as long in the field as they predicted? Just conjecture.
Looking at the literature on the 33560 / 33760 units they talk about 'future proofing' for new features. Nothing specific mentioned, but obviously something new is coming.....

Sensors transmit on the 314.9/315 & 433 Megahertz (MHz) band. Sensors receive on the 125 Kilohertz (KHz) band signals from either a handheld wakeup & programming tool, or from the car's RKE module.

I guess it's best to get cloned wheels as far away from the vehicle as possible as soon as you can. A pile in the garage next to your car might not be a good idea.

 

[Nahnnidog]

Sensors transmit on the 314.9/315 & 433 Megahertz (MHz) band. Sensors receive on the 125 Kilohertz (KHz) band signals from either a handheld wakeup & programming tool, or from the car's RKE module.

I guess it's best to get cloned wheels as far away from the vehicle as possible as soon as you can. A pile in the garage next to your car might not be a good idea.

Interesting. Any idea what might be happening with out-of-season (OOS) clones being 10-20ft from vehicle antenna? I can imagine that the OOS may try to call home like ET. Keep boosting their power like cell phones do to try to make a tower.

Could a TPMS scanner be used to determine if the OOS wheels are desperating transmitting back to the mothership?

 

[Fibber2]

I've not seen any mention of variable power output from the transmitters. Cell systems work that way because there is a level of immediate two way communications, a handshake of sorts, that prompts a required level of response. The TPMS system is devoid of this in practical use, although it's possible that the chipsets are capable of more. There is functionality baked in that has yet to be invoked. When Schrader talks about 'future proofing' in their latest product, you just know that their latest Designer Kits are hinting at new features.

There is a lot of debate about whether cloning is a good idea if you can't keep the out of season tires some distance away from where you park.

1) From a vehicle perspective, it only becomes an issue for the first 30 seconds when you start the car and begin rolling. Any first message would reflect duplicate delivery, but it would be the same ID, same temperature, no rolling (phase angle) data, and maybe different pressures (but hopefully still within spec.). As long as it got a good pressure on that ID, it probably won't get upset over the conflicting low pressure.

2) From your stored tires standpoint, it could have a very marginal impact on battery life to be woken up daily and then be allowed to go back to sleep. But it's still nothing compared to a tire being used on the car year-round and in use daily.

I have one set of clones in use stored in a loft above the garage, and haven't had any issues when my daughter kept her car here (for a year). Still, some others have stated that they had false dash indicators and battery life issues when the stack of tires was too close to the car. On person stated that they aired up the tires in storage (they had sunk into the low 20's psi) and the bad first reading of the day was resolved. Electromagnet waves generally follow inverse square law relationships, so every foot away you can get your stored tires is a step in the right direction to avoid any conflicts.

 

[Oldlefty]

So just to be sure before I order- for my new 2022 Premium Outback, I'm getting tires and wheels from Tire Rack. They suggest the ATEQ Quickset TPMS tool.

I assume I will be able to add the sensors to the vehicle computer with this tool. Would I be able to clone the sensors? It looks like the Tire Rack sensor is a Schrader.

 

[Nahnnidog]

I assume I will be able to add the sensors to the vehicle computer with this tool. Would I be able to clone the sensors? It looks like the Tire Rack sensor is a Schrader.

Fibber2 the expert here, just my $.02: Provisionally, the Schrader 33560 will have better battery life than Schrader 33500 so check which Tire Rack will be selling. Interesting question on how Online Wheels/tires sellers like Tire Rack deals with cloning ID's and/or "re-learning" the TPS to the vehicle.

 

[Fibber2]

The ATEQ Quickset is a very basic tool. You enter all your data thru a PC app, and the Quickset is the interface between your PC and the vehicle OBD port. It's a tedious process and not very intuitive. I bought one in 2011 and updated the software with every new release up until I bought an Autel TS508 a few years ago. The Quickset is better than nothing, but almost anything out there is better....

You will not be able to modify the personalization of the Schrader sensors that Tirerack programs for you with the Quickset. And I do not believe that Tirerack will clone sensors for you even if you offer to supply a set of 4 hex ID's. Heck, I had a hard enough time getting Tirerack to even supply me with the Hex ID codes years ago when I bought a winter package from them with sensors. They just expected me to take the 4 new assemblies to a tire store and have them read out so that I could enter the data manually into the Quickset. That said, you might be able to get an independent tire shop to overwrite the Schrader sensors that Tirerack installs with clone data from your OEM set, saving you any future hassles.

Now with a 2022 Outback Premium.... Some say the newest models will 'self learn' (register) a new set of 4. I have to admit that I'm not 100% sure as conflicting data has been presented here. If so, you won't need the Quickset or any TPMS tool, but we need to have someone else verify automatic registration.

 

[Oldlefty]

Thanks Fibber. If that's the rumor I'll be the Guinea Pig and give it a try. If it doesn't work then I'll just pretend to ignore the yellow light... for a while.

Order sent, should be here Tuesday, I'll report back.

 

[Fibber2]

Tirerack has a nationwide affiliation with local tire shops that will often step in and help with issues. I found their pre-arranged pricing to be generally reasonable, and sometimes they'll do something for free if you ask nicely. If you can't get the new package to link up to your 2022 and you want to either have the new set cloned or one-time registered to the vehicle, I'd start with one of these shops.

And of course you always have the option of a one-time investment in a tool to register the data yourself. If you swap the tires at home and don't want to have to schedule another shop visit, nothing beats having your own gizmo.

The basic ATEQ Quickset is $100 on Amazon. Inexpensive, but clunky to use. https://www.amazon.com/ATEQ-QuickSe...t=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9004846&hvtargid=pla-568817438289&psc=1

This is what I have, and I love it. I know nothing of the seller, but the price is quite exceptional. Genuine Autel Model TS508 Maxi TPMS Diagnostic Service Tool Kit Scan Authorized | eBay

 

[Oldlefty]

.........

Now with a 2022 Outback Premium.... Some say the newest models will 'self learn' (register) a new set of 4. I have to admit that I'm not 100% sure as conflicting data has been presented here. If so, you won't need the Quickset or any TPMS tool, but we need to have someone else verify automatic registration.

I got my tire/wheel sets from Tire Rack late last week, waxed the wheels over the weekend (as recommended by Tire rack.....), and put them on the 2022 Premium today. Drove about 3 miles and the light came on, stayed on for the rest of my two hour with 4 stops trip.

I don't know if the system would take longer than that to figure it out. Also don't know if Tire Rack fully "woke up" the sensors before shipping, but they did supply me with the four sensor codes (as requested).

Love the Blizzaks- as usual, here to the lee of Lake Ontario.

 

[Superru]

My experience has been the sensors need to be read (they gave you the codes) then loaded into your cars computer. Discount Tire did it for us for free.

 

[Fibber2]

My experience has been the sensors need to be read (they gave you the codes) then loaded into your cars computer. Discount Tire did it for us for free.

On your 2019 that's absolutely true. You must register the sensor ID numbers to the vehicle.

There's a bunch of data out there suggesting that on some of the higher end newest models there might be a self-learning capability. That's what we are testing here. The fallback position if @Oldlefty can't get his system to 'auto-register' would be:

1) Buy a Quickset and upload the 4 hex codes TireRack supplied (manually type them in on a PC and x-fer to the Quickset).

2) Have someone with a shop-grade TPMS tool read the 4 tires and upload those codes. Or buy an Autel TS508 and do that yourself. You might have to do this with each seasonal change if the system never 'learns' on it's own.

3) Find a shop with a Bartec or any higher end TPMS tool that talks to Schrader 33500 / 33560 EZ-sensors or whatever TireRack is currently using and ask them to overwrite / re-program your 4 new tires with the same codes as your OEM tires (make clones) so that you can swap in the future and NEVER need to touch a TPMS tool ever again.

 

[Fibber2]

Some new news:

I've spoken at length about Autel TPMS tools. By creating a 'walled garden / closed infrastructure', they are able to offer up an excellent home use / restricted shop-level tool at an amazing price. They do this by locking you into the purchase of their proprietary sensors if you want to exercise the tools capability to create CLONE sensors. The tool will do almost everything else across the board (read sensors, register any sensor to your vehicle, do OBDII TPMS diagnostics and download DTC codes, etc.). You just can't program any other brand of blank sensor. Only Autel MX products. In my book, it's a very fair trade-off as MX sensors seem to work just fine, and they are priced right too.

Well, the success of this restricted programming approach seems to be catching the attention of the big guys in the business. Schrader (Sensata) has something like 45% of the worldwide TPMS sensor and tool market. Up until now they were solidly a part of the Open Architecture camp. Their EZ-sensors were universally programmable, and their tools could program almost any blank sensor out there (with the big exception of Autel MX sensors). And for that privilege, you paid about 3x more for a comparable tool vs. what Autel charges.

Schrader has fired a return volley. Some months ago they introduced a totally locked tool, the S-41. Last month at the SEMA show Schrader introduced the new ST-1 tool. Both are pretty much full function tools in all respects except for blank sensor programming: out of the box they will ONLY program Schrader EZ sensors. You'll presumably pay less, but be restricted. The S-41 is locked down forever, but with the ST-1 you can pay an upgrade fee to 'unlock' it and it will become universal. I haven't seen tool-only retail pricing yet. Only bundles for the trade.

 

[Oldlefty]

Tire Rack says that the sensors they installed on my winter set (for my 2022 Premium) are Schrader 433 mhz G2 sensors (invoice says PN S202 320602). What options do I have on reprogramming these? Are they "cloneable"?

The 2020 Schrader catalog (most recent on their website) says that the 2020 Outback OE sensor is 28103AJ00A .

They list the Schrader replacement (which I think is the E-Z sensor?) as PN 20602.

Go to PDF page 254 (catalog page 239):

2020 Schraeder Catalog

After a bit of googling, post #244 on this thread:

Need info on 2018 TPMS sensors

Shows success using the same sensors and the TS508. Is that my best bet?

 

[Fibber2]

Tire Rack says that the sensors they installed on my winter set (for my 2022 Premium) are Schrader 433 mhz G2 sensors (invoice says PN S202 320602). What options do I have on reprogramming these? Are they "cloneable"?

The 2020 Schrader catalog (most recent on their website) says that the 2020 Outback OE sensor is 28103AJ00A .

They list the Schrader replacement (which I think is the E-Z sensor?) as PN 20602.

Something doesn't seem right with that edition of the Schrader catalog. I'm pretty sure that the AJ series OEM sensors were 315 MHz. The FLxxx were the 433 units used from 2018 onward.

TireRack shows this for the number you listed (320602):

It does not seem to be a Schrader number, but the picture sure looks like a Schrader 35000 body. So I really can't say if you'll be able to modify it's programming.

 

[Fibber2]

After a bit of googling, post #244 on this thread:

Need info on 2018 TPMS sensors

Shows success using the same sensors and the TS508. Is that my best bet?

I remember that thread. You'll see me there too!

As I've mentioned before, Autel is a walled garden. It can read any sensor and upload that data thru the OBD port (called Registering). The description in that thread is just that. They are not using the Autel tool to modify any data contained in the Schrader sensors. They are just pinging them, reading and storing the response, and then writing that data to the vehicle. And you typically have to do this with every seasonal tire swap.

If the wheels contained Autel sensors, then they could have used the TS508 to overwrite the data in the sensors and turn them into clones of the OEM sensors. Once done, you never need to Register sensors to the vehicle again.

Schrader sensors are open source, meaning that a wide range of tire shop tools can overwrite them and create clones of the OEM sensors. But typical open source tools are expensive so less likely to be privately owned. Fortunately most tire stores could do this service.

 

[airlia101]

Program blank universal sensor: With a vehicle manufactures protocol and a new hex ID or a Clone ID of an existing sensor. I believe this is accomplished using the single receiver on a TPMS sensor (the low frequency short range 125 MHz antenna), but I never really gave this much thought. A coded request must put the sensor in a "learn" mode to allow non-volatile writing / overwriting of the existing data. There is a safety lockout to prevent hacker overwriting - the sensor must be at near zero psi (atmospheric pressure).

Ooh, I didn't know about that service lockout to not rewrite IDs when pressurized! Should have taken a couple minutes before handing the new sensors over to the shop. Better to know, thanks for sharing.

Oddly, the 4 new Schrader 20081 sensors I bought actually had IDs already in them before I could touch them. Now, maybe Pep Boys initialized them out of pure generosity, but color me surprised if so! (bought the sensors via RockAuto, so it wasn't TireRack either)

That might mean I'm lucky and can just upload those new IDs to the car... but, since my used ATEQ scanner (VT55) came without an OBDII cable, I suspect I'll have to reprogram the new ones with old IDs instead, and so my inflator and I have some noisy bonding to do 🙃